EXACTLY! Punk rock was not born. It wasn't "Adam and Steve." No one band should be heralded as "The First," nor ""The Best," It is what it is. It evolved. Fuck, Elvis was a punk--where do you think Sid Vicious and Billy Idol got that sneer from?
Oh, I am all over that "Elvis as the first punk" theory! "Hound Dog" sounds like the Ramones 25 years early! But with a blues guitar solo Johnny Ramone would have never done...but Johnny Thunders WOULD have. I am surprised you and never thumped a table over these things in my NYC days, John. Maybe I'd still be living there! :-)
I dimly recall a Creem reader’s poll c. 1978 on First Punk honors. IIRC Iggy won, but names as disparate as Bo Diddley and Frank Sinatra also got votes. May have been a vote for Beethoven in there, too.
Man, I could write so much about the Dolls and their influence on punk rock. And crazy stories about people's reactions to that first record (some from gay disco/soul fans--who hated that first record!) I moved to NYC in 1972 when they were taking off. Never saw them at the Mercer Arts Center but saw them open for Mott the Hoople at Madison Square Garden's Felt Forum. Saw them many times after--the weirdest show was their last at the Little Hippodrome, when Television played their last show with Richard Hell... They could have been great, but they were so self-destructive (like so many rock 'n' roll bands)... But The Stooges were the biggest influence on 1970s punk rock.
All true. I think they *were* and *are* great. And it's arguable which band was more influential -- the Dolls or The Stooges. I think they were both equally great, but I give the edge to the Dolls, as far as my personal tastes go. I certainly hear most '70s punk guitarists exercising some cross between Johnny Thunders and Johnny Ramone. As always, I love hearing from you, John. I always trust your eyewitness observations 100%, and you're just a great person. :-)
Yeah, 100% it was dangerous in 1973 in middle America to let people know you were into the Dolls or God forbid, David Bowie. Beatings would commence. Lester Bangs and Creem magazine were my lifeline to meaningful music in those days.
Well... if you think that punk rock started in NYC, you're on target. Even though the Dolls were a commercial failure, they brought attention to the music scene in NYC in the early 1970s. And they injected a lot of energy into their music, and inspired bands like the Ramones, etc. Tell you what: Let's call it a tie, OK?
I can go with that. Although my belief is it began in Detroit with MC5 and The Stooges. The Dolls took it and refined it, and early Television with Richard Hell, then the Ramones. I mean, it's like you and I talked about, and which is the basic premise of my book: *No one* "invented" punk rock -- EVERYONE did! It really got passed around like a hot potato, didn't it? Man, I can't wait for us to do an interview, John! :-)
I love Johnny Thunders' guitar playing more than almost anything else in existence. I like the Heartbreakers better than the Dolls, and I even like Johnny and Walter singing better than David. But ... All of it, man. And, by the way ... Who ARE the Mystery Girls????
Tim!! Thanks for the shout-out! I'm having a great Jesse Sublett Day, thanks in huge part to great pals like you who happen to be brilliant rock 'n' rollers for life. I'm doubly, triply honored to be part of your New York Dolls essay. I've loved the Dolls ever since I first heard those guitars growling like wrestling grizzly bears and seeing that eye popping image on the band on their record cover. I can attest to the ability of the Dolls to evoke random stupid negative reactions. We used to try and emulate them when I was in college, wearing make up and ridiculously tall platform shoes, invading keg parties that were mostly devoted to southern rock yahoos and Willie fanatics. It was great fun.
Elvis was not the first punk (nor was Little Richard or anyone--didn't we just agree that it was evolution and not a creation?). But that sneer! Sid and Billy definitely had it. Might be a reason they became so popular, no?
I was very late to the Dolls (as in, I’d been listening to the Pistols & Clash for two years before I so much as heard a single Dolls song…such was the desolation of L.A. rock radio c. 1979) but once I did hear them, the sheer _fun_ of the band was undeniable and welcome. Sure, a bit much Jagger for my taste at the time (we L.A. punks were considerably more forgiving of manqué Jim Morrisons) but the sheer shambolic bravado of the pose was just good clean (i.e. dirty) fun.
EXACTLY! Punk rock was not born. It wasn't "Adam and Steve." No one band should be heralded as "The First," nor ""The Best," It is what it is. It evolved. Fuck, Elvis was a punk--where do you think Sid Vicious and Billy Idol got that sneer from?
Oh, I am all over that "Elvis as the first punk" theory! "Hound Dog" sounds like the Ramones 25 years early! But with a blues guitar solo Johnny Ramone would have never done...but Johnny Thunders WOULD have. I am surprised you and never thumped a table over these things in my NYC days, John. Maybe I'd still be living there! :-)
I dimly recall a Creem reader’s poll c. 1978 on First Punk honors. IIRC Iggy won, but names as disparate as Bo Diddley and Frank Sinatra also got votes. May have been a vote for Beethoven in there, too.
Man, I could write so much about the Dolls and their influence on punk rock. And crazy stories about people's reactions to that first record (some from gay disco/soul fans--who hated that first record!) I moved to NYC in 1972 when they were taking off. Never saw them at the Mercer Arts Center but saw them open for Mott the Hoople at Madison Square Garden's Felt Forum. Saw them many times after--the weirdest show was their last at the Little Hippodrome, when Television played their last show with Richard Hell... They could have been great, but they were so self-destructive (like so many rock 'n' roll bands)... But The Stooges were the biggest influence on 1970s punk rock.
All true. I think they *were* and *are* great. And it's arguable which band was more influential -- the Dolls or The Stooges. I think they were both equally great, but I give the edge to the Dolls, as far as my personal tastes go. I certainly hear most '70s punk guitarists exercising some cross between Johnny Thunders and Johnny Ramone. As always, I love hearing from you, John. I always trust your eyewitness observations 100%, and you're just a great person. :-)
Yeah, 100% it was dangerous in 1973 in middle America to let people know you were into the Dolls or God forbid, David Bowie. Beatings would commence. Lester Bangs and Creem magazine were my lifeline to meaningful music in those days.
Well... if you think that punk rock started in NYC, you're on target. Even though the Dolls were a commercial failure, they brought attention to the music scene in NYC in the early 1970s. And they injected a lot of energy into their music, and inspired bands like the Ramones, etc. Tell you what: Let's call it a tie, OK?
I can go with that. Although my belief is it began in Detroit with MC5 and The Stooges. The Dolls took it and refined it, and early Television with Richard Hell, then the Ramones. I mean, it's like you and I talked about, and which is the basic premise of my book: *No one* "invented" punk rock -- EVERYONE did! It really got passed around like a hot potato, didn't it? Man, I can't wait for us to do an interview, John! :-)
I love Johnny Thunders' guitar playing more than almost anything else in existence. I like the Heartbreakers better than the Dolls, and I even like Johnny and Walter singing better than David. But ... All of it, man. And, by the way ... Who ARE the Mystery Girls????
AND HAPPY BIRTHDAY, TIM! YOU ROCK IN ALL CAPS, BROTHER!
Tim!! Thanks for the shout-out! I'm having a great Jesse Sublett Day, thanks in huge part to great pals like you who happen to be brilliant rock 'n' rollers for life. I'm doubly, triply honored to be part of your New York Dolls essay. I've loved the Dolls ever since I first heard those guitars growling like wrestling grizzly bears and seeing that eye popping image on the band on their record cover. I can attest to the ability of the Dolls to evoke random stupid negative reactions. We used to try and emulate them when I was in college, wearing make up and ridiculously tall platform shoes, invading keg parties that were mostly devoted to southern rock yahoos and Willie fanatics. It was great fun.
And these words and the way you arranged them is the reason we have a Jesse Sublett Day. Thank you, my friend!
So spot on. I find the preference for bland precision over chaotic exuberance completely baffling.
Great tribute to the dolls and most importantly happy 😊 birthday 🎂
Happy Birthday, my friend!
this is spot on. I always thought Rush was overrated....can't fckn stand the vocals.
Photo credit for Violators photo would be appreciated. Happy bday.
Taken care of. 🙂
Is that one of yours', Ken? My apologies, sir.
Just keep writing and find more ways to use my work. 👍
Elvis was not the first punk (nor was Little Richard or anyone--didn't we just agree that it was evolution and not a creation?). But that sneer! Sid and Billy definitely had it. Might be a reason they became so popular, no?
I was very late to the Dolls (as in, I’d been listening to the Pistols & Clash for two years before I so much as heard a single Dolls song…such was the desolation of L.A. rock radio c. 1979) but once I did hear them, the sheer _fun_ of the band was undeniable and welcome. Sure, a bit much Jagger for my taste at the time (we L.A. punks were considerably more forgiving of manqué Jim Morrisons) but the sheer shambolic bravado of the pose was just good clean (i.e. dirty) fun.